what makes a good game?

[Marx-Paragon]

well, the subject of halo and the final fantasy series of games(that came up recently in a forum disscusion here) got me thinking, "how could these two series, who have released game after game with esentially no changes to the concept and gameplay except extra weapons and items, still be seen as such great games in the public eye and therefore make so much money?"

after doing some careful research on the subject i have come up with some answers.... but thats not why im posting this. this also got me thinking "what makes a good game?" im still looking into this question, and i know there are some gamers here other than myself, so i thought i would ask you guys what your thoughts were on the subject.
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[Chaosengine]

I've been gamin' since the advent of the Atari generation. I've seen game properties come and go and I've never really cared for FF or Halo.

The first two or three FF games were good, but once the Playstation era started, I lost interest. As "Yahtzee" Croshaw of "The Escapist" describes it, FF is awash with the Japanese concept of "girly boys with bad hair fighting Satan". If your an FF fan, more power to you, I just can't get into it anymore.

As far as Halo, it's not the game so much as the mindset that online play breeds. "Pwning N00bs" is not my idea of fun. I dealt with all the bullying in school, let alone in a game I payed for. When "teabaging" gains procedence to "gameplay", I'm a saaaad panda.

I played various MMO's for years. WoW, Lineage and a slew of others came and went, but I lost faith in them too.

I love Diablo and Action RPG's that follow suit. The Shin Megami Tensei series has my devotion as well as the MANY offshoots. Dragon Quest too.

I know it may sound like I'm being a "gamer snob", but ya gotta pick carefully. Rising costs and heavy competition means more scrutiny per product. Don't let popular names sway you, try before you buy.

-- "Hang in there, we're all in this together." Chaos
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[Shadow_Twisted]

Well, really what I feel gets so many people into a good game is the variation of the replay value. Which is why I feel Final Fantasy has been so successful, they have very intricate and elaborate storylines that require a very in-depth approach to playing to fully appreciate.

As far as Halo, it seems to just play on that whole concept of a man isn't a man without a gun in his hand. I just laugh at the thought of any of these kids trying to fire a real gun, let alone having one fired at them.

For me, I like RuneScape a lot. The reason is that, while there are the usual "omfg ur such a n00b" type players, some can be friendly. I have a good group of friends and there are a lot of skills with various ways to build them.

[Rune174]

Games with good replay value after beating a game for the first time usually are excellent games in my book.

RPG (Role Playing Games) are usually the most diverse, or are the simplest to play if you know how to make the classic control styles work, depending on what kind of game this genre is mixed with, such as RTS (Real Time Strategy), or TBS (Turn Based Strategy). Final Fantasy is a good series, but lately it is getting a tad bit stale. Lately I've been playing games like Growlanser, Ar Tonelico, Disgaea, and so on. I like alot of other types of games, but RPGs and FPS's are my favorites. I liked Halo when it was on the Xbox, and it grew, and so did my interests for it in the books, so it was really the story that captured me, not just the gameplay. I don't even really try anymore for ranked games, so most of the time I just forge away and show it off to my friends. Hell, I'm even making a machinima for it one day in the not so distant future.
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[xivk]

a good game... im not sure what one is anymore. seeing as before with the classics what i got as a good game was when a game was random and... what i would say is mystical. just how music, gameplay, and the mai ncharacter made the game awesome. (sonic, rocket knight, ecco, bomberman, star fox, etc.)

but now a "good game" would be massive explosions, online play, short gameplay, stories that make no sense but content that make people not pay attention to that, and glitches that allow players to feel special.

far as halo anf teh FF series

halo= online + easy for kids (who shouldnt be playing it)
FF series= story is interesting to stick with it + graphics + characters
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[Evan_Himmel]

Every one has the prefernces, and ther likes and dislikes.

[xivk]

[Niam Maxtor]

I enjoy the Halo games, and there story lines, I have read the books and whatnot. What makes Halo great for me is the action and the strategy to it. When you put it on the highest difficulty and turn on most of the 'skulls' it's like it becomes a different game. Although to answer you question about why people keep playing Halo, is that many people like overcoming the overwhelming odds stacked up against you. One man. Two guns. Five bazillion enemies.
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[Chaosengine]

Speakin' of good games, I just picked up a copy of Loki: Heroes of Mythology.

I have no idea why critics were so hard on this game. I know it's a Diablo-clone, but it does a really good job of it. Crisp, clean visuals combined with highly detailed backgrounds make for an immersive hack fest. Great character choices (the Aztec shaman and Greek Warrior chicks are schweeeet!) and a snappy interface. It was the special collectors edition with metal DVD case and awesome poster.

The best part?

It only cost me $6.00 USD! Talk about luckin' out!
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"One night in Bangkok and the world's your oyster.
The bars are temples, but the pearls ain't free...
You'll find a god in every golden cloister,
And if you're lucky then the god's a she..."

[Cassandre]

I know its pretty bad, but I like Bioshock and Bioshock2.

I just can't help it. I love first person shooters, with lots of gore, violence, and a funked up plot line. Not funked up like lame or crappy, funked up like weird. Its much better that way, in my opinion.
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[xivk]

Bioshock 2? didnt think that was out yet. @_@

First bioshock though, that game had a hell of a plot twist.
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-Xivk

[Cassandre]

Well, Biochock2 hasn't come out yet, but you can tell its gonna kick ass.

I mean, this time the main is a Big Daddy, and a Little Sister who has escaped has come back, and is the Big Sister. Its freakin' awesome! I can't wait to play it..!
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[JohnnyPsycho]

I dunno, I've liked most of the Final Fantasy games I've played. I suppose since I haven't played very many (or finished many, either), I haven't noticed any problems with plot or replayability. I adored FF7, I thoroughly enjoyed FFX, thought FFX-2's dress-sphere system that allowed switching job-classes mid-battle was great (despite the criticisms that it was basically a dress-up game), and thought the AI-gambit system of FFXII was interesting (sure was nice to put things on "autopilot" when you're level-grinding or hunting for items).

My favorite part of FFXII was the ability to interact with monsters "live" in the field, as it stepped away from the old "random encounters" of the older games which tended to be very annoying when you were trying to get somewhere fast. This time, you can steer-clear of encounters because they're not just invisible triggers on the field. I'm sure it was meant to give a more MMO-feel to it, but at the same time the Grandia games (which I'm also a fan of) have been doing something similar, only slightly different, for a while already.

Again, I'm not what one would call a "hardcore gamer", I'm much more casual about my gaming and don't tend to follow a series like some folks do.
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[Caroline]

((Are we just talking about the Final Fantasy series or what makes a good game in general?))

[Rune174]

What makes a good game in general. We were just giving examples as such.
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[Marx-Paragon]

[xivk]

Once again proving how stupid hte gaming industries getting, who puts a "training" dvd with a game that teaches you infinite combos in a fighter game. Whose idea was that?
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[Marx-Paragon]

[xivk]

[Rune174]

I don't know, isn't Super Smash Bros. Considered a fighting game?
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[Marx-Paragon]

[Rune174]

Mortal Combat was one of the first violent video games was'nt it? Then came Killer Instinct, Street Fighter was first, Super Smash too later.
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[Shadow_Twisted]

I know there was a combo move for Orchid in Killer Instinct in which she would flash her opponent, causing a heart attack (only executable when opponent was in "Danger" mode.

[Caroline]

[Marx-Paragon]

[xivk]

[Caroline]

Alright, as promised, here is my long, rambling diatribe on what makes for a good game. Now, mind you, this is all my humble opinion, and I doubt I'll stay on topic for 100% of it. Since it seems like we're focusing on CRPGs a lot, I think those will be most of my examples.

For me... it's a lot of things. Something can have an awesome story, but the voice acting / translation be so bad that I'll hate it. Something can be drawn / animated really well, but the music is sooooo lacing... something can just be plain dull, or... something can not be 'top-of-the-line', but blends so many things together just right.

I like stories... i love watching them in movies and anime... i love reading them in books and manga... so... probably what makes for a good foundation for a game. Especially if the story is a bit oddball. Case and point, a little known game imported by Nippon Ichi called "Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure. Instead of being overly dramatic about saving the world, or stopping the mostest ultamestest evil, you're a teenage girl who is trying to get a dance with the prince... and when the prince is turned to stone, you go on a quest to de-stone him. No great plot arc, but... a really weird way to start a story, and an awesome way to draw you in. I loved it! The art was classic 2d cell shading, the characters goofy fun, and your "powers" were zany. But, point being, it was the story. If a game has a good story, chances are I'll slough it out, just to see what the story is.

Thinking of that, quirky-games seem to be a lot of fun to me too... stuff like "Portal" or "Katamari Damaci", or "Chu-Chu Rocket" with their puzzle solving, oddly-translated fun, and "Ooooooooh-I'll-be-back-to-get-you-cat!" feelings I had a blast playing. Shoot, I'll play Spider Solitare for hours trying to get another win. I loved the Looney-Toons esq look of the classes in Team Fortress 2. I guess I really like quirky stuff.

Another thing I like, and I think this is mostly because I'm getting older, and don't have all the free time to just level grind, are games with "variable setting" or "known encounters". I hate random encounters... its annoying. It either happens way too freaking much, or you spend fourty minutes trying to find one fight. I like games like Valkyrie Profile, Disgaea, and Lunar where you can either "see" where the monsters are, or can replay a specific scenario. To me, too often gaming companys equate "Random Encounter Battles" with "Fun". Sure, it was fun to watch the girls change costumes in FFX-2, and I'm guilty of paying with my barbie dolls, but... that only goes so far when you're trying to hunt back to the story. And, along those lines, I hate games where you HAVE to do freaking side quests to flesh out the story line. I loved Fallout 3, where, if you wanted too, you could go super-ultra-exploring, and see all of DC in its irradiated greatness... or just find out where your dad is, and complete the game.

I know this'll sound dumb, but a game also has to be fun. Gauntlet 2, for the PS2, I loved! I could pop it in. Pick my Elf, play for about 40 mins, and get my fix and be satisfied. It didn't expand any game frontiers, but it did blend together enough quick fun that it was enjoyable... the current computer incarnation of Blood Bowl is just as fun... as is the dirty-pleasure of Bloodrayne. Sometimes I hate how games have save points so crapily positioned. Case-and-point, Silent Hill: Homecomming... in the dream sequence, you have a save point practically every other room... when you first get home, I haven't found a save point yet... so you end up playing for hours trying to find a save point... you think the game auto-saves, only to have it not, and now I'm back to having to talk to some trucker as I get home.

Extras... I enjoy games that have extras. But, and this is a super-important but, these extras cannot make the game. Disgaea has a ton of them... from hidden characters, to extra boards, to powering up weapons... but you don't have to do/unlock any of them. You can, if you want, but it isn't mandantory. A number of games call something "extra", but it really isn't... as it is almost required to have it to get through some spots. Extras can also be stuff like hidden art (like in Rhapsody), goofy in-game jokes, like the toilet bowl from Silent Hill 2, or how the Orange Box has game developer bubbles and commentary. Shoot, I'd play DOA: eXtreame Beach Volleyball because I wanted to try to get one more swimsuit, or I was determined to get one of the characters to be my teammate.

I like games that make "sense". I hated how in Resident Evil you were in a zombie infested city... but you couldn't kick open a freaking door! What... were the zombies going to BILL me for breaking something? (and super-koodos-awesome points for getting that reference). Or, for being a cop, you knew ZERO freaking take-down stuff. Aren't all cops trained in some sort of cop-fu? If I have to look for keys, but the keys in a place where keys are kept... a key box, a desk drawer, a tray by the door, a pants pocket, a car sunvisor... don't put them in the bottom of some swimming pool I have to drain first, because apparently I can't hold my breath for 5 seconds. I loved how in Parasite Eve they actually did a serious amount of research for the mitochondria stuff they were talking about. Show's a duty to detail and a sense of pride to go that extra step. Don't get me wrong... I'm not talking about plot holes, or hollywood-esq action and explosions, or having to use real science and not star-trek-technobabble, or real physics vs. batman physics... I'm more talking about puzzles that didn't make sense, were un-necessary, or just not needed. An action movie that, for me, did some freaking awesome puzzles was God of War and God of War 2. They were hard, frustrating, but the game gave you just enough built-in clues that you didn't have to goto freaking gamefaqs to find out how to get past it.

Art... that's something else. I love good art. Whether it's comic-book style, anime-style, 3d style, graphic novel style, or whatever. Good art makes me put up with a lot of stuff that is otherwise mediocre. For example, Petitte Cossette (I know, anime, but work with me here) is only a meh story... but I love the gothic-french feel of the art of it. Eternal Poison is only an okay stratage-RPG, but I love the gothic-art of it. Same goes for voice acting. I'm really tough on voice acting... and if some 6-year-old character doesn't sound 6... the game is going to have a harsh time keeping my interest. Case-and-point... Fatal Frame 2... whoever they got to be the twin with the bum leg was awesome! The first time I heard her timidly and appologetically plead, "Mio, wait" I nearly feel out of my chair, it so freaking scared me. If a character is only okay drawn, but the voice actor is awesome, I can find myself going from "he's okay", to "wow... I really like him."

In a similar fashion, same goes for character designs. I love how Gordon Freeman and his HEV suit looks... which is weird, as guy characters tend to be way too freaking macho-stupid-tough, or way too freaking guy-next-door. Case and point, the main character in Persona 3 I think looks stupid. But Junpei, Suh-WEET! Going back to God of War, I loved how they took classical myths and made them feel and look fresh again. I don't think I'll ever look at Daedalus in the same way again. Valkyrie Profile impressed the hell out of me in how the fighters looked like fighters. Id est, decent armor, decent extra bags or daggers. And even the girls wore armor that would actually protect them! No chain mail bikini's here. I mean, really, Lenneth looks absolutely amazing! If I were a Valkyrie, I would totally, TOTALLY want to look like Lenneth.

So... since I've now totally geeked myself, and shown just how much of a social life I don't have, I think I'll end this here... sorry about being so lame.

[Marx-Paragon]

WOW

thats awesome caroline, seriously, you just made my day.
this is interesting becuase it seems like you and i have similiar views on the subject

your comment(and everyones elses, for that matter) really gave me great insight into your opinion on this subject, thanks to everyone for taking the time to tell me what you all think
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2 make comics
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[Jerin Nekros]

great points, now i'm real tempted to do one of these myself. not that it'll match up to you.
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