Time Travel

[Nightwolf]

Okay, I know what you all may be thinking “Oy not another time travel topic.” But hear me out. This topic might be more interesting than most.

I must warn you, it's long...but interesting if you like speculation and silly debate.

So I’d like to start with an image if you will to make this as relateable as I can. Imagine you’re standing at a particular point/station in an empty tunnel/subway system with a large number of stops along the way, lots before yours, and lots after. Let’s call the stops in this transit system “A” through Z+ infiniti. You’re waiting for a “train” and let’s say you’re standing at point/station “M.” Now imagine that this tunnel is one very straight line. This entire system (and line) represents what we think we know as “time” or the flow of time from point A representing the beginning of our known universe (and of time) to ∞ or infiniti and back (since we don’t know how far time actually stretches obviously).

Still with me? Okay!

Now….you’re standing in the middle of this line on station “M” which represents present day. Granted this is presumptuous thinking that we’re in the middle of the timeline which can neither be proved nor disproved. But we can agree that we’re located at one point in time somewhere.

To our working knowledge, the only stops we’re aware of are of the present time (at station M) and what we know of as the “past” (or previous stations A-M).

At present time, we expect that the “train” will not be coming anytime soon as we haven’t yet the technology or understanding to bring such a “train” to fruition. This “train” represents what we could call a “time machine.” Some mechanism capable of traversing this tunnel (the space-time continuum) in either direction both forward and backwards in time. It needn’t be an actual train or vessel. It could be any kind of force capable of providing passage through time as well as space be it a theoretical wormhole, gateway, or a device of some sort.

T I M E
←----------------------------Backwards
A------------M-------------Z+infiniti
-------------------------------→Forward
T I M E

I’d now like to take the opportunity to say that I’m not a scientist, nor a physicist, nor a prodigy mathematician, so I want to stay humble about this by saying that this cannot be proved, nor can it be disproved at this point (I don’t think). But the theory is fascinating which is why I bring it up.

Time travel has been thought of as nothing more than a myth, a fantasy, something that hasn’t been brought to fruition from a practical standpoint. The reason for this is because of our limited understanding of both the world and space around us. As much as we think we know, there’s a lot we probably don’t know which will bring me to my next point.

I love watching the science channels on tv occasionally. The programs are interesting and they make you think. What does upset me sometimes, however, are when they start discussing things of a more fantastical nature, such as time travel. Speculation about something that’s, quite frankly, still in the realm of fantasy just bothers me. Especially when these scientists start proclaiming that something just can’t be accomplished or “it can’t be that way; it could only be this way.”

The latest theory that scientists love to throw around about time travel is this:

“If I developed a time machine today and turned it on today, then 100, 500, or even 1000 years from now, a person could only travel back to the point in time when my machine was first turned on which would be today and no earlier. This is why in actuality we don’t see any time travelers today since it hasn’t been invented.”

My question to this statement is: Why? Prove that we can't go farther back.

Okay, even to a non-scientific person (someone without a physics/math/engineering, etc degree), that just sounds ludicrous. First of all, my biggest gripe about such a statement is that 1, it’s made with the limited knowledge we have today of physics, math, and outer space. Secondly, it’s a hard statement about a concept that’s theory only and just speculation and primarily still fantasy. So it’s speculation about speculation, as is my idea above about the subway tunnel representing time and the “train” representing the mechanism to traverse it in either direction However, I can still voice my opinion and with what limited knowledge I have, why couldn’t it be possible?

This is why I disagree with the “can’t go farther back than the point of time machine creation” idea. If something can exist, it does in some form or fashion. Anything that’s possible or will be possible already exists and has existed since the beginning of everything, hasn’t it? We just haven’t been able to wrap our minds and technology around it and focus our abilities to pinpoint how to bring it into common knowledge and understanding with the tools we have right now. It’s like putting together a puzzle. All the pieces are there and have been for quite a long time. It’s simply a matter of putting them together in an order that makes sense (to us) which can create something like the ability to fly, a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, a car, or the ability to travel through time.

Also, if we follow the concept that time is linear, then who’s to say that we’re limited to traveling only as far back as to the point at which we first entered that traversable line or to the point in time at which we learned how to travel it? Why couldn’t we visit the dinosaurs? Time has existed for…well….a long time which means that if you learn how to travel through it now, you aren’t necessarily limited to a particular segment of it. Why would you have to wait 1 minute or 100 years to reap its benefits? Once you’re in, you should theoretically be able to go as far forward or backward as you want. You’re only limited to what actually exists or will exist.

Going back to our line then, let’s say point/station “A” represents the beginning of the universe (the Big Bang perhaps or the point at which everything started from a single centered point…no offense to those who believe in other forms of creation) and point/station M represents the present day. If we’ve just caught the “train” and have harnessed it and know how to control it at point M, why are we limited to only going back to point M? If we’re on the “train,” don’t we have access to the entire system as a single whole in either direction? Who’s to say we couldn’t go forward either? Point T, for example, will exist so we should be able to go there now that the technology exists. Just the same, point D also exists and, relative to point M, has for a long time. Once we’re on that line, we should have access to all of it.

Let’s also imagine that the “time machine” exists in a type of temporal bubble shielding itself and you from the detrimental affects the normal or abnormal (backwards) flow of time might have on it depending on how far forward or back you go. So you wouldn’t grow so young to the point at which you no longer exist if you travel back in time, nor would you grow absurdly old from traveling forward.

That being said, you might not be restricted to only that one space-time line either. You might have access to multiple universes (other subway lines) with an infinite number of realities/possibilities/causalities so as to avoid paradoxes so you could see all possible outcomes of particular events.

The space-time line is the road. There’s no barrier…at least, not to our knowledge. Theoretically, you can get on the road at any point and travel in either direction as far forward or back as you like.

So if we wanted to, couldn’t we see a T-rex, our primate ancestors, George Washington, BonBon in 1895, the chicken sandwich you had last Thursday, or what the planet might be like 500 years from now? Each event or causality has already created a future outcome. From our limited knowledge of the present, we just can’t see/understand it yet, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

That also said, the mechanism we would use to traverse time would allow us to observe and dangerously (or amusingly) take part in any point we could access. That’s where the danger exists. If time travel is ever a theoretical possibility, so would be necessary security measures to prevent us from participating in a past event that could seriously alter the flow of time and the events to come unless for some reason, we had to change something.

Well, I’ve gone on about this and I apologize if your brains hurt. Just thought I’d share my take on this fantasical (for now) concept and would be curious to know what any of you BonBonians think of it.

[Tadelesh]

There's just one thing I can think of to say right now, and that's that if there are numerous lines (because of the decisions we make every day that cause multiple possible futures), and you go back in time, and accidentally change something that would change the future.. you would, theoretically, still be able to go back to the present day you knew, as it still exists, because the possibility is still there for what you did to not happen. I hope that makes as much sense once written as it did in my head..
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Wow, sarcasm! That's original.

[Feingo Ferinton]

Well, first of let me pop a few Tylanol to deal with the massive headache I've aqquired from trying to set this whole idea straight in my head. O.k that's better.

I am also definately NOT a scientist, so most of what you've said, no matter how plainly you may have put it, went right over my head, two miles up.

But there is one major point in your discussion that I definately find myself agreeing with more and more the longer I think about it. If so-called "Scientists" are to be so bold as to speculate that the reason we see no time travelers here, now, is because time travel will be impossible past the point that the first machine is turned on, how can they be so certain of this? Could it not be possible that time travel would base no premisise at all on when the first actuall machine was created and activated? What is one machine to put a barrier on time? How can they come to such a conclusion?

Also, scientists say that human knowledge is growing more and more vast as the years go on and new discoveries are made. If this is true, and we are truly gaining a wider outlook on scientific theories and knowledge with every passing day, then my closing question would be this. With this growing knowledge, this vast expanse of intelligence from learining from our "mistakes", would it not make sense that somwhere in the future, after the first time machine is activated, even if it is discovered at first this barrier on our exploration into the past, that someone would gain the knowledge to learn from past mistakes and figure a way around this barricade? If what scientist claim about growing knowledge is true, then how could they claim such a theorie as this hypothetical "barrier" that prevents us from seeing time travelers in the present???
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Feingo's story:
http://forums.pleasurebonbon.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5873

[JohnnyPsycho]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more the idea of "only being able to travel back to the point when the time-machine is turned on" seems to be fairly valid.

Okay, so let's look at the theoretical time-machine as a temporal version of TeeVo (or some other similar video recording device). If you get your TeeVo and hook it up to your television, you can't just rewind the device to watch something that was on TV 2 weeks ago, before you plugged it in (you know, unless of course they're playing reruns, but that's not the point I'm making here...). From the moment you plug in and turn the device on, you're left with having finite control over the time from that point on, and not from before.

I think what most folks who scoff as such an idea are having trouble realizing is that time is not necessarily a linear progression, nor is it necessarily a universal constant...

Many cultures view time as cyclical, for instance, and to show this the tunnel in your model would have points A-Z, except after point Z it would go back to A, thus the tunnel forms a cyclical path. In this manner, a time machine would be useless, since you'll eventually get back to some point in the past anyway.

Einstein's Special Relativity states that "both space and time are percieved differently for observers in different states of motion". To sum it up, in a nutshell, the faster you accelerate toward the speed of light (or the more intense the gravitational forces around you), the more time slows down. This leads to space and time being represented as a single construct called "spacetime".

[Nightwolf]

Great response, Johnny.

I've also considered the possibility of time being cyclical as well, not just linear. I guess I got caught up in the linear model, however.

The Teevo analogy is interesting as well and I guess what I'll say to that is, "Sure. Why couldn't that be the answer as well?" That would support the view of not being able to go back farther than the point of when the machine was first activated. I, myself, wasn't scoffing at the idea so much as I was merely questioning the fact that some scientists stick with that idea with the "it could ONLY" be this way" approach. That's all I was questioning, not that their view couldn't be just as plausible. I would think open-mindedness should be at the front of the line with such speculation.

Fact is, this circles back to our limited understanding of space itself. Granted, I'm not undermining what we have learned (which has been a lot). But we haven't yet learned how to harness time travel (if ever) so I can say that I'll keep an open mind about any theory. I just get a little peeved when proclamations are made about theories that can neither be proved nor disproved at this point.