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Silvador
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 Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:14 am Post subject: Bethesda gots balls! |
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How many people here play Minecraft? I know a couple of people do and I'm willing to bet quite a few more do.
Alright, now how many people here play one of Bethesda's many great games? Again, probably a few of you.
Upon checking for updates on Notch's blog (creator of Minecraft for those who don't know), I read a rather interesting piece he'd recently posted and came to realise that Bethesda need a swift kick in the arse and I hope Notch gives it to them.
| Notch wrote: | A lot of people want more details about what is going on, so here is everything I know:
First of all, I love Bethesda. I assume this nonsense is partly just their lawyers being lawyers, and a result of trademark law being the way it is.
About half a year ago, our lawyers recommended us to register “Minecraft” as a trademark, so we did. I had voted against it initially, but we did it anyway. Better safe than sorry, and all that. At the same time, we also applied for “Scrolls”, the new game we’re working on. We knew of no similarly named games, and we had even googled it to make sure. I’m not even sure if you CAN trademark individual words, like “Scrolls”, but we sent in the application anyway.
(Disclosure: We’ve enforced the trademark for Minecraft once, when there was a minecraft clone on iOS, using our name. People were emailing me saying our iOS version was buggy and bad, so we asked them to change the name of their game, and they did.)
A while later, out of the blue, we got contacted by Bethesda’s lawyers. They wanted to know more about the “Scrolls” trademark we were applying for, and claimed it conflicted with their existing trademark “The Elder Scrolls”. I agree that the word “Scrolls” is part of that trademark, but as a gamer, I have never ever considered that series of (very good) role playing games to be about scrolls in any way, nor was that ever the focal point of neither their marketing nor the public image.
The implication that you could own the right to all individual words within a trademark is also a bit scary. We looked things up and realized they didn’t have much of a case, but we still took it seriously. Nothing about Scrolls is meant to in any way derive from or allude to their games. We suggested a compromise where we’d agree to never put any words in front of “Scrolls”, and instead call sequels and other things something along the lines of “Scrolls - The Banana Expansion”. I’m not sure if they ever got back to us with a reply to this.
Today, I got a 15 page letter from some Swedish lawyer firm, saying they demand us to stop using the name Scrolls, that they will sue us (and have already paid the fee to the Swedish court), and that they demand a pile of money up front before the legal process has even started.
I assume this is all some more or less automated response to us applying for the trademark. I sincerely hope Bethesda isn’t pulling a Tim Langdell. |
Bethesda, you make great games, but if you go to court with this BS I hope you get taken for every dam penny you're worth. >:[
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Caroline
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:04 am Post subject: |
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((Silv,
Something to think about. Intellectual Property, IP, has been getting some serious attention as of late, with how quickly information can be disseminated. Overall, while Bethesda may be a bit overzealous in protecting their IP, they do have a point.
Do you call the game "Scrolls", as in "Hey, did you play the new Scrolls expansion?" or do you use the full name each time? The implication being that if you use an abridged name for the full name, and it is a commonly used colloquialism, then that word represents the entire name. For a different example, you can ask for a xerox or a kleenex, and people know what you mean. However, "xerox" and "kleenex" are brand names of "copies" and "facial tissues." And, oddly, you can trademark a lot of words/phrases. Ever see the rules for a game of Warhammer Fantasy? The first page is littered with names/words/units that GW has trademarked. Shoot, GW even tried to sue other companies over the use of the phrase "Space Marine".
So… *shrug*, Bethesda is well within its right to try to protect its IP. And, the Minecraft crew has also admitted to protecting its own IP. Businesses don't always have to play nice to solve problems.
Lastly, all that has been 'posted' so far about the issue is Notch's blog post. There has been no comment from Bethesda or Mojang. There are at least two sides to each issue. So… I'm not really convinced of Mojang's innocence, or Bethesda's corporate heavy-handedness. For all we know, it could be Mojang trying to ride on the coat tails of how popular and recognizable a series the Elder Scrolls is by just using the name "Scrolls".
Just some thoughts.)) |
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Silvador
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: |
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So, what you're saying is that how people talk about something is what determines the rights of copyright? By your logic the creators of Avatar: The Last Airbender are well within their rights to sue the pants off James Cameron for calling his last blue-obsessed screenplay Avatar.
The way someone refers to something does not dictate the eligability of it claiming rights. I could refer to PBB as "the shittiest comic ever", but that doesn't mean a comic that is actually called "The Shittiest Comic Ever" has the right to sue Vanessa.
Look at all the movies and games with titles that are near identical, if not identical. How many lawsuits do you see those people raising? Bethesda's "right" to sue Notch and Mojang is irrelivant. They are being nothing but dicks about it. If the game in question - the one Notch is making - actually resembled The Elder Scrolls I would have a different opinion. But to the best of my knowledge it does not. In fact, from what I could gather from Notch's blog, he has only put in an application to copyright the name, not that it has been approved or even declined. So what the fuck are Bethesda having a tantrum about? Surely if you put in an application to copyright "Blowhard" and someone else has already gotten to it, a red flag will pop up and the application will be declined stating that "Blowhard" and/or similar words/phrases/titles has already been copyrighted.
It sounds to me that Bethesda copyrighted "The Elder Scrolls" and didn't bother with "Scrolls" because there was no reason to. And now that Notch has hit it off with Minecraft, Bethesda are feeling threatened by another of his productions and have decided to slap on "Scrolls" onto their previous copyright in an attempt to quell a potential distraction from their latest addition to their "The Elder Scrolls" series.
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Caroline
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:49 am Post subject: |
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((
| Quote: | | So, what you're saying is that how people talk about something is what determines the rights of copyright? |
No, what I am saying is all we have to go on for information about the issue is a couple of blog posts by Natch. We are just getting his side of the story. Not the full story.
| Quote: | | By your logic the creators of Avatar: The Last Airbender are well within their rights to sue the pants off James Cameron for calling his last blue-obsessed screenplay Avatar. |
If the creators of Avatar wanted to, they could definitely try. As I said, there is no rule that says a business has to play nice. Maybe the creators of Avatar: The Last Airbender just don't care enough to follow up.
| Quote: | | The way someone refers to something does not dictate the eligability of it claiming rights. I could refer to PBB as "the <bleeping> comic ever", but that doesn't mean a comic that is actually called "The <bleeping> Comic Ever" has the right to sue Vanessa. |
If the comment is seen as the "norm" in terms of how the IP is referenced too, it is. Spiderman didn't start out owning the rights to the terms "Spidey", but Marvel has since trademarked the name.
| Quote: | | Look at all the movies and games with titles that are near identical, if not identical. How many lawsuits do you see those people raising? Bethesda's "right" to sue Notch and Mojang is irrelivant. |
Copyright infrigement can be tricky to prove. It falls into the same problem that a patent does. If someone else makes Widget X', after you've already patened Widget X, but their Widget X' uses royal-blue paint, and yours is just normal-blue paint, they can get away from it. However, if you've already made Widget X, I'd bet you'd attempt to sue Widget X' for trademark infringement. Shoot, if you want to get really fussy about it, you did yell at me for using one of your characters without your express, written, permission, in a story we were working on. So… I don't see the difference.
What I do see is that we don't have the full story on what's going on between Bethesda and Mojang. We have no comment on what Bethesda has already trademarked. For all we know Bethesda could have trademarked "Elder Scrolls", "ES", "Elder", "Scrolls" or any other combination there-of. And, we really don't know what was in that 15-page letter than Notch received, other than what he's telling us.
We're not getting a full story. Shoot, for all we know, Notch could have cooked the entire thing up to generate more sales of his game for people that are fond of "sticking-it-to-the-man". Or mayhaps Bethesda already warned Mojang several times not to use the name "Scrolls". One blog post does not make a "truth" or "fact". It makes a comment.
So, I'm suggesting we don't jump to conclusions, and find out what's really going on.)) |
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Silvador
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Who's jumping to conclusions? You're turning my original post into a debate about right or wrong when it has nothing to do with right or wrong. All I am saying is that Bethesda are being dicks. I don't really care if they have a right to sue Mojang or not. It is my personal opinion that Bethesda are being childish over something petty and I hope that, if it does go to court, they lose for being total dicks about the matter.
Right or wrong is irrelivant to the attitude the matter is approached with. Bethesda are a huge company with millions and millions and they are sueing... a handful of guys in a fucking cubicle!
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Caroline
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: |
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(( Silv wrote,
| Quote: | | It is my personal opinion |
And, that sums it up. Opinion. Good Night everyone. )) |
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Silvador
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Caroline wrote: | (( Silv wrote,
| Quote: | | It is my personal opinion |
And, that sums it up. Opinion. Good Night everyone. )) |
And just what is that supposed to mean? Did I ever mislead anyone to thinking what I posted was anything more than my opinion? You act as though my opinion offends you in some way, as though the very thoughts in my mind are a blight. You act as though opinion means nothing.
You come into this thread and start going on about rights and right or wrong, and then when I state that all I was offering was opinion, you push the subject aside like some snooty queen pushing aside a dirty peasant.
Just what is it you came into this thread for? It seems that everytime I have something to say you just want to pounce on it and beat it down. I've yet to see you pummel someone else's opinion the way you do mine. It's like my words are a virus to you or something. Tell me, Caroline, what did you come into this thread for? Why did you post if not to just shoot down what I had to say? You offer nothing but "facts" and "truth" as if you expected me to run cowering into a corner and say "Oh. My mistake. I was wrong." when I did nothing wrong. I did not state that what Notch posted was all there was to the story. I did not say that state that one side or the other had more right than the other. I posted what I found and added to it my opinion in the hopes of starting a discussion on the topic. But instead my thread is assualted as if it were an exam paper with countless errors in it. Why did you feel the need to come to a discussion thread and berate me for offering nought but my opinion?
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Caroline
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:35 am Post subject: |
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((Silv,
I came onto your thread to give you a heads up that you shouldn't rely on one blog post to come to any conclusion. I was trying to give you a head's up that the full story hadn't come to light yet, and that all that was posted as a BLOG post. Not a report. Not a story. A blog post. A blog post that, as far as I can tell, isn't echoed anywhere on msnbc, foxnews, cnn, bbc, wsj or others. As such, I felt you were jumping to a quick opinion about the actions of Bethesda and Mojang.
I wasn't stating you weren't allowed your opinion. I wasn't saying your opinion was correct or incorrect. I was expanding on what you posted on.
I even started my first post with "Something to think about" as I thought, maybe, for once we could have an actual chat about something, and not have it degrade, again, into you pretty much yelling at me.
And, if I'm not allowed to express a divergent or different opinion than yours, why do you claim :
| Quote: | | I posted what I found and added to it my opinion in the hopes of starting a discussion on the topic. But instead my thread is assualted as if it were an exam paper with countless errors in it. Why did you feel the need to come to a discussion thread and berate me for offering nought but my opinion? |
Isn't the point of a discussion to find out what details and data are missing?
Quit trying to start a fight with me. )) |
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Silvador
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Caroline wrote: | | I came onto your thread to give you a heads up that you shouldn't rely on one blog post to come to any conclusion. I was trying to give you a head's up that the full story hadn't come to light yet, and that all that was posted as a BLOG post. Not a report. Not a story. A blog post. |
You think I didn't know that? I may not have a degree in anythings, but I'm not so dumb as to think that a single blog post is the entire line and fishing pole of a matter.
Alright. Fine. I will step down this time. I apologise.
And a possible reason for not having heard of this matter elsewhere is because that is Notch's personal blog, it stands to reason that it'd be the first place to see news of this.
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silverleaf
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Silvador
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| silverleaf wrote: | i can find a few holes in that post anyway, just because he doesn't think bethesda has any kind of copyright to the word scrolls because he doesn't think TeS has anything to do with scrolls is ignorance on his part.
clearly by using the name scrolls he plans on piggy backing on the other games success and popularity and the fact that a new elder scrolls game is coming to help get people to play his game. |
To the best of my knowledge, Notch (and everyone else who works with him) have been working on "Scrolls" for a few years now. I highly doubt Notch had such prior knowledge of Skyrim's release that he decided to "piggy back" on its release to get attention. As far as I know, Scrolls is also not yet complete. And with the success of Minecraft, Notch hardly needs to mooch off of someone else's attention to get his own. One need only slap "From the creator of Minecraft" on the game to get attention to flow towards it.
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Caroline
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: |
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((Silv,
No need to appologize.
Something to consider, business news, such as one company bringing another to court for copyright infringement or class-action suits against companies, usually gets posted on the business/economics sections of news-websites. )) |
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Silvador
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Caroline wrote: | ((Silv,
No need to appologize.
Something to consider, business news, such as one company bringing another to court for copyright infringement or class-action suits against companies, usually gets posted on the business/economics sections of news-websites. )) |
Yes, but don't the reporters behind those sites have to hear about it first? I mean, I know they can be pretty quick. But who's quicker than the guy who got the original email? 
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silverleaf
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:27 am Post subject: |
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up until some one mentioned it in the forums i'd never heard of minecraft, and haven't played it so i didn't know that.
but he did try to copyright the word scrolls only about half a year ago as it says in his blog, and thats pretty close to when beth announced skyrim.
obviously it was just a coincidence, but it was jumped on simply by that fact.
and on a side note to his post, TeS actually pretty much revolve around scrolls, they predicted everything that happened in morrowind, and oblivion including the quest when you have to steal one (and the first 2 as far as i've heard) and are even mentioned in the trailer to skyrim, so it's kind of funny to me when he says they have nothing to do with scrolls
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Silvador
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:32 am Post subject: |
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I think that he meant what he said in a sense of direct gameplay. As far as I know, Notch's game "Scrolls" is supposed to revolve around using various scrolls in gameplay, as items. I only played a little bit of Oblivion, admittedly primarily for the... easthetic mods available for it, but never came across a point that actually included scrolls directly in gameplay.
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Rune174
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| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I know of the games, both Scrolls and Minecraft, and yes, I do think that Bethesda is taking the matter a little too seriously. Seeing as how many of the blog posts by Notch about how he enjoyed their games, and even went as far as to tell the world about how much he is looking forward to Skyrim. His posts even went as much into detail about how he applied for the word Scrolls as a stand alone name, even after research was made as to whether or not a game existed with just that one word as a title, which came with no results, so he filed it.
If anything, Bethesda needs to take up their argument with the people who are filing the paperwork and the trademark for Mojang on the naming issue for the game, not the company itself. Personally speaking, but they only trademarked with the phrase, 'The Elder Scrolls', and everybody associates with that series of word, not just the one.
Notch specifically said he is trying to compromise by not adding any words in, or any of the addon-packs with any of the other stated words. And that Bethesda is merely excercising its right to protect their own trademark. He still respects them.
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